Please help! What kind of camera should I buy?

[wolfeyeofiowa]

Digital gives you instant feedback, so you know right away if you captured the image the way you wanted to. Sorta. The small LCD screens really don't tell the full story, and the time you spend reviewing each shot is time you are not, CAN not be shooting.

Film has one huge advantage over digital - exposure latitude. You can err far more with print film that with digital cameras - or even slide film, notorious for it's narrow exposure latitude. What this means is that if you have a scene that has brightly-lit areas and very dark areas, with print film, you'll capture at least SOME detail in both areas. With a digicam or slide film, you'll lose one or the other depending on how you expose.

Don't quite understand why the first paragraph is important. If the shots are coming fast and furious just bang away. You might check once to make sure that everything's OK.

(And you don't have to stop every 24/36 and reload.)

What I'm saying is that digital's biggest advantage versus film is instant feedback, but using that feed back is both inaccurate (the small LCD screens really don't tell you what you've got) and that constant doublechecking means you won't be shooting. You're right, you *can* just fire away, but then you're back to the "stone age" of hoping you got the shot. There's no difference in shooting a film camera and shooting a digicam without checking each picture as it's taken, and thus, digital's biggest advantage isn't all its cracked up to be - oh, and memory cards get full too. Especially with RAW shooting.

It'll only cost $150 to get a film SLR, versus $1500 for a DSLR. That'll buy a lot of film. If you don't think a SLR is the best photo teaching tool, try taking a college class with a P&S - film or digital. Probably won't be acceptable. What a beginner needs to know is how ASA, shutter speed, and aperture combine to turn light into a captured image, and there's no better tool than a SLR.

IMHWO

[bobtrips]

"What a beginner needs to know is how ASA, shutter speed, and aperture combine to turn light into a captured image, and there's no better tool than a SLR."

Again, that's your opinion, it certainly isn't mine. ISO(ASA), shutter speed and aperture work exactly the same on a SLR, dSLR, compact digital, MF/LF film/digital, rangefinder, etc. You can learn with any.

IMO the issue it the rapid feedback that digital gives and the cost-free shooting.

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And your costs are bogus. If one wants a dSLR you can but a great one with a basic lens for under $1,000. Not $1,500. And you continue to downplay the real cost of a film camera.

To be fair to newbys give them all the facts. Don't skew the data to push your preference. (And be careful - you're arguing both side of the fence. ;o)


Now, I've laid out the reasons why one might want to choose digital as a learning platform. It's their choice.

[wolfeyeofiowa]

"What a beginner needs to know is how ASA, shutter speed, and aperture combine to turn light into a captured image, and there's no better tool than a SLR."

Again, that's your opinion, it certainly isn't mine. ISO(ASA), shutter speed and aperture work exactly the same on a SLR, dSLR, compact digital, MF/LF film/digital, rangefinder, etc. You can learn with any.

IMO the issue it the rapid feedback that digital gives and the cost-free shooting.

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And your costs are bogus. If one wants a dSLR you can but a great one with a basic lens for under $1,000. Not $1,500. And you continue to downplay the real cost of a film camera.

To be fair to newbys give them all the facts. Don't skew the data to push your preference. (And be careful - you're arguing both side of the fence. ;o)


Now, I've laid out the reasons why one might want to choose digital as a learning platform. It's their choice.

Well, opinions are just that, opinions. I don't want this to drag on and turn into an argument. Even if we accept your figure of $1000 for a DSLR my point is still valid. You can take fine pictures, and a lot of them, with a $150 film SLR. And save a ton of money.

You're right on some of the details though - yes, a rangefinder would work. But not a compact P&S, neither film nor digital. If you can't set the shutter speed or aperture then you aren't going to learn anything but how to point a lens at something and press click.

Honestly though, you're the one who's not presenting the choices. I'm just saying that all this pro-digital advice isn't totally true. I think we all know how wonderful digital is. I just wanted to point out that its advantages come at a cost.

[bobtrips]

"But not a compact P&S, neither film nor digital. If you can't set the shutter speed or aperture then you aren't going to learn anything but how to point a lens at something and press click."

There are tons of compact cameras that offer full manual control.

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And using some numbers.

New dSLR w/ kit lens $900 (Canon 350D w/lens)
New SLR w/kit lens 260 (Canon Rebel T2 w/lens)
Price difference 640

Cost of 36 exp. roll of print film - developed and printed 4" x 6" $9
Number of rolls/frames for $640 71/2560

Cost of film plus CD of scanned frames $12
Number of rolls/frames for $640 53/1920

Now I don't know how much you shoot, but for serious photographers a roll a week (average) isn't unreasonable. At that rate a digital pays for itself in a year or so. (And I doubt that serious photographers are using print film and getting their processing done at discount places.)

My first digital paid for itself in less than three months of travel based on what I had been spending for film and developing.

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And realize that $9 plus the slow turnaround time will reduce the number of learners who really practice.

One is less likely to grab their camera and play with getting a good shot using only a table lamp for a light source if they hear the cash register ka-ching! each time they press the shutter button.

And if they have to wait hours/days to see their results they're less likely to remember what they were trying to accomplish when they took the shots.

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I'm not interested in an argument. I'm interested in a discussion. And discussions require factual information and civil behavior to continue.

If I've posted something incorrect and someone can show me why that is true I'll be glad. That means that I'll have learned something new.

And I like learning new stuff.

[wolfeyeofiowa]

A film SLR, like I said, goes for $150 - try http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=232175&is=REG for example. And digital "film" isn't free, nor is the computer hard drive and backup CDs and CD burner.

[ukexpat]

A film SLR, like I said, goes for $150 - try http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=232175&is=REG for example. And digital "film" isn't free, nor is the computer hard drive and backup CDs and CD burner.

Digtal film is not free but you can reuse it over and over again, reducing its price per shot over time.

[robotworks]

Poor sucker. Wanders right into a classic digital film flame war. How boring.

I think you ought to get a 4x5 Speed Graphic with a good tripod, a half dozen film holders and a decent light meter. The question isn't about digital versus Film, it's SIZE that counts baby. For 1500 bucks, you can buy a good Speed Graphic a couple of good LF lens, a D2V enlarger and everything you need to get started on really learning photography. Buy the book, take a class, visit a place with real photographers http://www.apug.org/.

Have great time.

t

[zekewhipper]

Hello All,

Here is a very different two cents worth of advice on what beginning camera to buy, (and when I say SLR I also mean DSLR).

I recommend (recommend mind you):

1. Buy a SLR.
I think everyone would agree that a SLR provides for the most creative flexability photography-wise for the least cost. Rangefinders are good, but more limited.

2. Make sure it has a built-in flash, but also buy a hotshoe mountable flash.
Remember, in photography LIGHT IS EVERYTHING! Without light, there is no photography. A hotshoe mounted flash (or better yet, wireless capability like on Minolta Maxxums) provide for the best flash photography pics. However, if it gets busted in the middle of something important, you still want to be able to quickly and effectively keep taking pictures when the conditions require flash. A built-in flash (as long as it is not also broken) allows for this. If you are in a situation that dictates either "no picture because of no flash" or simply "an O.K. picture by built-in flash", the choice is obvious.

3. Get a camera that allows for full automatic operation AND full manual operation including auto-focus AND manual focus.
Full manual operation allows for the most creative control. However, full auto. is especially nice when the situation calls for frantic picture taking. Cameras that have different "program" modes are nice because they let you see what happens picture-wise when different camera settings are used. But more importantly, I disagree with starting out all manual for one simple reason (which I have seen first hand). Some beginners can find all manual photography so intimidating, frustrating, and difficult, that they simply give up on photography as a hobby without really giving it a chance. None of us want that. The trick is to get them to start taking nice pictures quickly (especially composition-wise which full auto. operation allows) so that they want to experiment and keep going with the hobby. Beginners have got to enjoy it right from the start or they may quit. If they keep at it, then they have all the time in the world to hone their skills.

4. Think about "why" you want to get into photography. I started writing a book a short while ago about how to go about choosing the "right camera". In it I begin with asking the reader to think about what is motivating them. Without a doubt, the person saw one or more photographs and thought to themselves: "I want to take shots like that!". This leads then into a discussion on how the types of pictures they wish to take directly influences the features and options they should be looking for in a camera. Different cameras with different features are used different ways. I then discuss what individual camera features/options do and why. From there, I tell them to come up with a list of things they believe they will need in a camera. Then they are to find cameras (by doing the required research) that should meet their needs per their list. I encourage them to try to get their hands on different bodies of the various models and try them out.

5. Don't ignore ergonomics!!!!
Everyone has different hands, physical manipulation skills, memory ability, and levels of patience. All of these things also dictate what sort of camera they should be looking for and should become part of their list of required features. For example, if you have big hands, knobs and dials make work better for you. If you have a good memory, menu driven operation may not be that big an issue. If you walk a lot, then light weight may be desireable. So on and so forth. (I discuss the various pros and cons of those sort of factors.) Something I have also witnessed first-hand, is this. A person goes into a store, buys the first camera that looks and sounds "cool", starts taking pictures, hates fidgeting with the camera, gets fed up, and quits photography. The camera sets on the shelf and gathers dust from then on. Whatever camera you buy, has got to be comfortable and pleasant to use in your hands. If it isn't, then you won't want to take pictures. If at all possible, test handling the camera bodies yourself.

6. I'm starting to write the book on-line, so I'll end this soon. Don't listen to anyone who has irrational biases for any particular brand (and you know who you are). (I personally shoot Minolta, Nikon, Pentax, Chinon, Yashica, Zeiss Ikon, Exakta, and others, ALL of them on a regular basis.) So, I can tell you truthfully, there is no such thing as the "best" make or model of camera. It simply does not exist, because everyone is different and has different needs. The truth is this: The best camera you can buy is simply the camera that is best for YOU! Doing your homework before buying can not be stressed enough.

I hope this helps, and sorry if it seems I was ranting and raving.

With regards,

Duke (a Minoltian at heart)