Is Tibet a country or not?

[wasper]

Well, it was and still would be if the frickin' Chinese would get the heck out of it. Fat chance! A very sad takeover and occupation.

The Chinese destroyed 6,000 temples and monasteries, killed over a million people, including monks & nuns and don't even allow the native Tibetans to speak their own language in school and business. They've also forcefully reloacted more than a million Chinese into Tibet to help assure that the Tibetans will be subserviant to Chinese culture in the future.

It is the holocaust of our time and neither the US or UN has ever lifted a finger to help them.

I have some images from Tibet in my new portfolio for anyone who might be interested.

bart aldrich

Please read this: http://www.savetibet.org/News/NewsList.cfm?c=27

All your talk is rubbish. the Dalai Lama, himself has said that Tibet is better off being part of China. He is about to revisit the place for the first time since 1959. End of conversation.

[mreichel]

What? The Dalai Lama to visit Tibet? Fat chance. China protested his visit to Taiwan in 2001 and refused to allow its ambassador in Moscow to enter a russian buddhist temple because it had a portrait of HH the Dalai Lama in it. So now they're about to let him in the country? Ha. Also HH would have never said that Tibet is better off being a part of china, maybe offering a compromise - something like yi guo liang zhi like Hong Kong and Macau, but never that blunt, simply isn't true, where are your facts? Please offer some solid information or stop posting bs.

[etone]

[quote="mreichel"]As an American who has lived in China, speaks Mandarin, and lived with Chinese people, I would like to offer what I hope to be a different opinion to the issue incorporating actual experience and understanding cultural and historical bias of both the parts of the Chinese and Americans to the best of my ability.
I've heard and I’m tired of hearing all the typical Chinese stereotypes and propaganda, like "Tibetans only shower once a year" (and believe it or not, many Chinese actually believe this to be a fact - I saw it posted in this forum a bit higher up), and “China liberated the people of Tibetâ€

[etone]

What's the difference between slaves - slave owners, and communist party - non party relationship?
Sick of communists' propaganda. Speak for yourself!

Well, I'm not a party member. But I make love to a beautiful lady who is, several times a week. I think this could be one of the differences.

Speaking of propaganda, I remember that when I saw the 2004 Olymics on TV, while Chinese team entering the field, the anchorlady mentioned that China is among the only 5(or 4?) remaining communism states in the world. I was shocked by hearing that. Because this sort of ideologic speech would be considered extremely inapropriate in media or even in public in nowaday China, but sounds so normal here.

There indeed is propaganda in China, which is considered as a joke by people. Yet at here, propaganda is dealt with seriousness and appears in people's everyday life.

[etone]

What? The Dalai Lama to visit Tibet? Fat chance. China protested his visit to Taiwan in 2001 and refused to allow its ambassador in Moscow to enter a russian buddhist temple because it had a portrait of HH the Dalai Lama in it. So now they're about to let him in the country? Ha. Also HH would have never said that Tibet is better off being a part of china, maybe offering a compromise - something like yi guo liang zhi like Hong Kong and Macau, but never that blunt, simply isn't true, where are your facts? Please offer some solid information or stop posting bs.

well, if you really want the references, you can google the keywords "达赖 访å

[mreichel]

[/quote] You know, lad: China has thousands of years history, and for most of the time, we are united. We were never a single culture/nationality civilization. Even Han itself is a mix of many independent nations along the history: you can see it from our wedding traditions, which basicly includes EVERYTHING. Unlike western civilizations, your "has been independent and has a strong and large established society and sense of cultural identity" and stuff is never a good enough reason for us to separate. The “issueâ€

[mreichel]

[quote="etone"]well, if you really want the references, you can google the keywords "达赖 访å

[mreichel]

Also, I would like to THANK YOU for engaging in this issue, I think we and everybody reading this has a lot to learn from these posts. I would like to see a more hard line "free tibet" supporter however, just to add to the sides, im pertty MODERATE on the issue, as I don't know if most Tibetans in Tibet would actually perfer to be independent from China AND if Tibet is unified enough to actually create a successful and stable government - which from just what i've seen doesn't look great - as it is a myth that Tibet and Tibetans are extremely united. keep it real,
-matt

[jperilloux]

I Who do you think Americans are? Savior of the world?

Well, yes, we do think that way, and with reason. We have saved most of the world at one time or another.

http://perilloux.org

well, yes, u really "did a good job"

i don't like to talk too much about politics here, caz it equals to "lie". don't u think ur goverment also cheat u?
yes, currently, USA do dominate this world, u can do everything u like(the big fish eat the smaller one which is the rule of the nature). But it won't always be the case, the world are changing.
in the near future, conversely, we might "rescue" ur people in the same way just like what u did to us. do hold a five star flag to welcome us at that time! (my written english is poor, hope u can understand):twisted:

Chinese people here, listen, keep silence now and just wait...

Yes, I do remember the welcome about 30,000 of your counytrymen gave my fellow troops and me in 1955 when we lifted them, along with their cows, pigs, chickens and ducks from the Tachen Islands ahead of the advancing People's Liberation Army.
I wonder why those 30,000 were so eager to get aboard those U.S. Navy LST's and other craft, rather than wait to be "liberated" by Chairman Mao's glorious PLA? When the PLA occupied the Tachens three days after we evacuated the last Chinese national there was not a single citizen there to welcome them with a 5-star flag.
Bu hao to the PLA and ding hao to the nationalists on Taiwan.

[mreichel]

Yes, I do remember the welcome about 30,000 of your counytrymen gave my fellow troops and me in 1955 when we lifted them, along with their cows, pigs, chickens and ducks from the Tachen Islands ahead of the advancing People's Liberation Army.
I wonder why those 30,000 were so eager to get aboard those U.S. Navy LST's and other craft, rather than wait to be "liberated" by Chairman Mao's glorious PLA? When the PLA occupied the Tachens three days after we evacuated the last Chinese national there was not a single citizen there to welcome them with a 5-star flag.
Bu hao to the PLA and ding hao to the nationalists on Taiwan.

You do know Mao's movement was indeed a popular movement. Without the support of the vast majority of Chinese people there was no way the PLA would have even had a chance against the nationalists. They had no money, no real training, and Jiang Jieshi saw them as his number one threat that needed to be eliminated. Accused "left" supporters were literally executed in the street. So as far as mass popular movements are concerned, Mao's was one of the largest and most successful. The Long March (helped the "CCP gain a massive positive reputation among the peasants, especially due to the determination and dedication of the surviving participants of the Long March" - wikipedia encyclopedia) did sweep the country side up into a frenzy, with locals joining the PLA at their own will, with hopes of land reform and a change in the balance of power. That’s what they got. The Tu Di Gai Ge redistributed land equally, ended serfdom, gave women rights, and abolished the landlord system (not to mention during the time right after "jie fang - 1949" China's economy tripled, as the nationalists mixed with the Japanese had left the country in ruins). So my question to you is, why were several million people rallying behind Mao?

[jperilloux]

So my question to you is, why were several million people rallying behind Mao?

Probably for the same reason several million rallied behind Josef Stalin and Adolph Hitler. It was preferable to a bullet to the head.

[mreichel]

Probably for the same reason several million rallied behind Josef Stalin and Adolph Hitler. It was preferable to a bullet to the head.

I tend to disagree, actually I whole heartedly disagree. Mao was and still is seen as a popular leader. Most of China (now and especially back then) was made up of poor agrarian peasants, land reform from an archaic system of worker exploitation and little actual social mobility was appealing to the masses. It's hard to turn peasants radical, history has proven that 1) rural poor are conservative, and 2) peasants make poor revolutionaries. Mao knew this well, he came from the countryside, he studied the peasants, he really knew the peasants and their hardships and therefore knew how to appeal to them and relieve the number 1 hardship ---- land. Note that in the years immediately following "liberation" the average per capita income tripled and inflation went down.

[adina_g]

Tibet is a country.

Political discussions are so dry.
good day gentlemen.

[mreichel]

Tibet is a country.

Political discussions are so dry.
good day gentlemen.

the one thing not being questioned here is the fact that Tibet as of right now is not a country. Thats what we can all agree on, it's fact. Political discussions are interesting and can produce results, talk, its all we have!

[llung]

Tibet is a country.

Political discussions are so dry.
good day gentlemen.

the one thing not being questioned here is the fact that Tibet as of right now is not a country. Thats what we can all agree on, it's fact. Political discussions are interesting and can produce results, talk, its all we have!

Tibet may not be a state, but it is certainly a nation of people. The former term is technical-legal, but the latter has far richer meaning.
Discussions of ancient history aren't particularly useful here. In our contemporary world, we have the right to self determination, which is guaranteed by numerous international human rights instruments as well as customary international law. The fact that a nation of people has been under the unwanted rule of an authoritarian government for millennia doesn't weaken that right. It actually strengthens it.