Board index Photography Artistic Questions Constructive Criticism - On pBase?

Artistic Questions

Constructive Criticism - On pBase?

Discuss style and artistic aspects of photography
mnoble
 
Posts: 135

Constructive Criticism - On pBase?

Post Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:59 am


Right off the bat, I will tell you that I am my own harshest critic. But I still look for constructive criticism from my friends, photographers I know, and those on pBase. I find that good CC is very hard to come by.

I have been tempted to contribute some CC to some galleries but I hesitate because I never see anyone doing it and do not want to offend anyone. Case in point. I saw a gallery of food photography last week. The images were competent but the lighting was harsh and the food looked unappetizing. Not what you want when photographing in this genre. I doubt an art director would have accepted the work. The comments, however, were glowing. I have seen this in other galleries as well with other subject matter.

Does this lack of CC help the photographer? I think not. We can always learn and so benefit from helpful remarks from more experienced photographers. Now, don't get me wrong. There are world class photographers on this site. I am not talking about criticism for its own sake. But in order to help the photographer.

What do you all think?

Thanks,

Mike 8)

dabaska
 
Posts: 5

Re: Constructive Criticism - On pBase?

Post Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:30 pm


I agree with U 100%

That's why I don't do it anymore...

Yves :wink:

halesr
 
Posts: 664


Post Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:57 pm


I agree with you about CC. But, here it is hard to tell. I try to be honest and make suggestions, but do that privately as some folks posting to pbase do not want CC. It is hard to tell who does and who does not appreciate CC. Various suggestions have been made. I think one was to post in Artistic Questions an image if your REALLY want CC.

Also, real CC perhaps can only be accoumplished in a group where trust has been built. I also think providing feedback privately can work.

Rene
PS: BTW, feel free to say whatever about my images. I can take it like a woman.

jypsee
 
Posts: 1247

once upon a time

Post Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:01 pm


I spent a great deal of time answering pmails from various PADers on technique and so forth until I decided that my efforts were taking too much time from what I want to get out of Pbase. The process of spending time giving feedback holds little reward in this virtual space. For me, anyhow.

Another thing that I think is happening is what a noted online photographer has said is the phenomenon of beginning photographers who all seem to think that what they do is exceptional and, hence, don't know how to take anything less than "glowing" comments. My experience of this has been borne out many times by having offered a private comment/suggestion/critique to a Pbase photog only to have the party rationalize the work instead of thanking me for taking the time to type a note offering some feedback.

So, I've said, to hell with it. In fact, I rarely comment on any photo for any reason any more. I'm amazed at how much time I have to browse this and other sites and so forth ... :lol:

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493


Post Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:11 pm


Below is your average net critic, i'd rather they stuck to taking shots of their lenses or better still the boxes they came in.


http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.c ... ernet.html

The one thing you i'd consider before you decide to give some critique is

1:
Do you actually know what you're talking about? Has everything you have learnt come from forums?

2:
Don't feel put out if they disagree with you, they might actually be right and you just don't know it. If it does put you out, then it's all about ego and not about the shot

3:
Do you care? I mean really care about what the photographer's trying to do? Because if you don't, say nothing; Because it's still about you AND it's not about you.

If you care about getting critique

1: It's going to hard to know if what you've been advised on is of any value or not if you don't know enough about the medium and if what you do know has come from pbase and a 100 other forums, you dont. It's all too easy to be sent to the land of toys by somebody who's got a years head start on Fred Miranda ect. So question, question, question the validity of what you you're told. It's often a case of the blind leading the blind and a blind man never taught anybody to see.


2: Photography is a solitary act, don't expect too much help.


3: You're going to learn very little about yourself or this medium by what a random stranger will tell you online. Your photographs will as you grow, it takes time but when it comes none of what we're talking about will matter anymore

It actually doesn't matter now

Keep shooting


Sean
Last edited by sean_mcr on Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

andrys
 
Posts: 2701


Post Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:12 pm


Sean, it's a spoof on the average net critic though.

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493


Post Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:37 pm


andrys wrote:Sean, it's a spoof on the average net critic though.



Erm, i know that Andrys that's why a posted it ( for about the fourth time on pbase)
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

andrys
 
Posts: 2701


Post Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:55 pm


When I posted my reply you had only the one sentence there rather than all that is there now.

Also, that opening line was/is poorly worded and wasn't clear the way you
had posted it.
I hope you don't mind constructive feedback :-)

madlights
 
Posts: 914


Post Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:05 am


I've given up to a degree in commenting. I still do it...but much, much less. I used to a lot...I'd say "wow" or some other inane thing. Then I got all analytical...and mostly say why I liked something which made me sound like a pompous buffoon. Now if someone asks me for honesty ( or if I see something a good friend misses and I know it ) I tell them....otherwise I'm back to the "wow" or "I really like this"...who am I to criticize? Without being asked? but people do like compliments on good work and for me to say "I like this" might give somebody some encouragement....since art is such a solitary and sometimes unrewarding thing....and tastes vary...and perceptions...and whole bunches of stuff. But liking something is OK...to me. So I'll say it....randomly. What's so funny about the link Sean posted is how the critics totally miss the intent...even if it weren't photos from famous photographers. If someone criticizes me on the execution of my intent...or gives me a better way to accomplish my intent...I like that...even if I don't listen it gives me an extra option, but that's just me...and not everyone is like me. So....

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493


Post Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:30 am


andrys wrote:When I posted my reply you had only the one sentence there rather than all that is there now.

Also, that opening line was/is poorly worded and wasn't clear the way you
had posted it.
I hope you don't mind constructive feedback :-)


I don't mind (but did you actually care :) ) but i thought the article would have spelt it out for you.
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493


Post Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:56 am


madlights wrote:I've given up to a degree in commenting. I still do it...but much, much less. I used to a lot...I'd say "wow" or some other inane thing. Then I got all analytical...and mostly say why I liked something which made me sound like a pompous buffoon. Now if someone asks me for honesty ( or if I see something a good friend misses and I know it ) I tell them....otherwise I'm back to the "wow" or "I really like this"...who am I to criticize? Without being asked? but people do like compliments on good work and for me to say "I like this" might give somebody some encouragement....since art is such a solitary and sometimes unrewarding thing....and tastes vary...and perceptions...and whole bunches of stuff. But liking something is OK...to me. So I'll say it....randomly. What's so funny about the link Sean posted is how the critics totally miss the intent...even if it weren't photos from famous photographers. If someone criticizes me on the execution of my intent...or gives me a better way to accomplish my intent...I like that...even if I don't listen it gives me an extra option, but that's just me...and not everyone is like me. So....


Nailed it there Barri,

We both know that the biggest obstacle is theoretical. You can't crop and clone and tac sharp your way to meaning. The vast majority of comments that have any kind of critique (tongue firmly in cheek) are along those lines. But photography is a very personal statement on how you see the world and you can only describe a better world by seeing it in a better way; that is theoretical, that's about growth and self discovery. Music, painting, sculpture, poetry and all of the arts provide a world of inspiration and teachings. It's rare as hens teeth that you'll ever get that on a forum.

You can't actually vote or give comment in my galleries any longer. It's never been important to me, it was never why i joined and it's certainly not why I stay.

Have i ever commented on any of your shots Barri? I'm not sure i have, but i know that when you and i have discussed photography in Pm's it's been of more use then any comment we're likely to give each other.

Finally, people can't expect critique simply because they took a photograph; "Why don't people help?" why should they? taking good photographs does not make you a teacher any more then owning a camera makes a photographer. For some it's like breathing and by that i don't mean easy, i mean that it's something that is fundamental to their existence and the idea that somebody can come along on a forum and give "constructive criticism" is in most cases laughable to them so they are not then going to do that very thing to somebody else.

Working Art photographers have had to face critics most of their working life. For the most part they are hated; That pretty much goes for all of the arts. But if you're going to try to make a name for yourself then that's way it is; it's just one of the things you have to face. But if you should be doing something simply for the enjoyment, then for the love of god free yourself from critics...


http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essay ... ouse.shtml


"FIVE: Get away from critics and criticism at any cost. Whether the critics are friends, family members, or the most learned advisor, criticism is not what you need in your life. You need to celebrate the benevolence of what you’re feeling, seeing, and can express through your art. The only ugly art I ever see is that which has been made as a “productâ€
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

mnoble
 
Posts: 135

Thanks for your input on this!

Post Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:48 am


You have shared some very good ideas.. (WOW!) :-)

Seriously, you all have made good points. My motivation in using constrictive criticism (and I emphasize constructive) is to help someone. I guess there is a bit of the frustrated teacher in me. I have been a serious amateur (who has done professional work) for 40 years. I just started my own photography business after years in corporate America. Reinventing myself at age 60.

So to address a couple of points. First, I would never offer advice if I didn't know what I was talking about. Photography is subjective (I loved the "net critic" link) and to second guess the photographer's intent is impossible. But I do believe that an experienced photographer can spot areas of improvement that effect the quality of the image - lighting, cropping, etc.

As for others critiquing my work, I do welcome it, but I think that I am experienced enough to recognize the "typical net critic." When people comment to me (even to see WOW), I check out their own work to get an idea of their expertise. And, again, there are so many very good photographers on pBase - amateur and professional.

The best suggestion I have seen here is to approach the photographer privately. And, perhaps, even ask if they are interested in a suggestion or two before offering. I don't think that we should ever stop learning. And, regardless of years of experience, we can certainly learn something new.

So, thanks again for your thoughts. They are much appreciated.

Mike :D

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493


Post Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:00 pm


It may not always be the case but i trully believe that most "Constructive criticism" is destructive rather then constructive. It's a kind of flexing of muscles and it might be on a subconious (ofen overt) level, but i believe it's there. So it's actually rare that you get trully objective, impartial advise


To give advice ( (assuming we have that right) has to be done with real care and understanding and i'm from the school that says people learn far more when they are supported for what they get right rather then having their flaws (that's if they are flaws at all) pointed out to them. If i hear crop or clone my eyes glaze over

I normally always finish any post with 'keep shooting' that's the one simple bit of advice that i always give and as simple as it is, it's the best answer to getting better.

Keep shooting

sean
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

jayhawk1013
 
Posts: 75


Post Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:44 pm


Something to contemplate, in regards to critics.

Ernest Hemingway once said of critics: "Critics are the ones who watch a battle safe from atop a hill then come down and shoot the survivors."

I myself enjoy criticism. I can judge whether it is valid or not, and learn from it.

halesr
 
Posts: 664


Post Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:07 am


sean_mcr wrote:If i hear crop or clone my eyes glaze over


Not sure I understand this. I got a respected photographer to mentor me online. I would post images and have him critique them. I felt I needed that kind of feedback to push myself. Sometimes, "crop" was exactly what he suggested and what was needed. I try to get it right in the frame at the time I shoot - probably what we all try to do, but sometimes it doesn't happen.

Here is an example of one of his critiques where the message was to crop and clone, or tighten the image. BTW, it was a flower fairly close up.

Generally, I think that the left and right edge of the frame are different from the bottom and top (especially the top). That is, we're put together so that we accept (and sometimes expect) blank areas at the top (aka sky) and bottom of the frame, and often it's constructive photographically to include areas like that because doing so emphasizes the rest of what's in the frame. A good example would be a lone tree silhouettted against the sky, with just a bit of foreground but quite a lot of sky over the top - this composition just about shouts 'lonely'. Empty space on the sides, though, doesn't work in the same way.

In this image, look at the left edge. Cover up the right hand side of the image and leave just the part to the left of the 'm' in your signature. What is in that section that's actively contributing? What it seems to be contributing is just space, to get the flower into the right spot in the composition. So if you crop off that bit of blank space on the left, all of a sudden you have a new problem - the image is no longer balanced nicely. To rebalance, you need to adjust the other edges - perhaps cropping a bit off the right.

There are two nice features that I think dictate where the left edge ought to go - the leaf angling down into the lower left corner, and the bud behind the leaf. If you crop just to the left of the 'm', all of a sudden that leaf falls into the corner (Nice!) and the bud is close enough to the edge that it becomes a bit more prominent.

The downside here is that if you crop on the right, you lose the nice cluster of leaves or whatever in the lower right corner. Maybe clone them into the newly cropped corner?

My goal in all of this is to tighten up a composition which seems just a bit loose. What do you think?

Rene

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