Board index Photography Artistic Questions SCHOOL FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS ???

Artistic Questions

SCHOOL FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS ???

Discuss style and artistic aspects of photography
dougj
 
Posts: 2276

Re: CHEAP LABOR

Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:21 am


akjack wrote:poor quality goods, tainted food products, dangerous toys for kids, etc. etc. yes, cheap labor and undocumented workers are the facts. China or Mexico or India, it's all the same.


Actually, it's not all the same. Companies that outsource to the lowest bidder, and do not establish quality practices for supply chain management, will eventually have problems in the market. The country of origin is totally irrelevant. The reason the US and the EU established and continue to improve safety standards is to address both internally & externally sourced products. When a company establishes cheapest price as the only criteria for selecting a supplier, and does nothing to ensure quality, the outcome is easily predicted.

The e-coli spinach & lettuce contaminations in the US were from locally produced products. The sources were never identified and the problems only became apparent when people became ill or died. Poor supply chain management.

The largest recalls of beef were made in the US due to e-coli & BSE contamination within the last year. 22 million pounds followed by 140 million pounds for 2 incidents. These aren't the only 2, do a google on beef recalls for the past 2 years and you will learn why some countries ban US beef due to documented safety issues.

If you really want to become informed, do a little research on mycotoxins and other food contaminates, and rejection of US-produced food by other countries. Poor supply chain management results in product problems.

It's not likely you will see these on CNN or Fox, yet they are all in the public record.

This is not to say that there aren't problems with quality & safety in products originating in products from other countries, nor that suppliers will lie and cheat. If a company purchasing these products doesn't have quality assurance programs in place they are fools and will suffer the consequences. If companies anywhere repeatedly violate safety standards they should be dropped, countries that do have an adequate safety framework in place should be banned.

You need to expand your information sources and knowledge, or you will continue to be misinformed and lead down the wrong path.

akjack wrote:Websites are just the new phonebook or bullitin board. They all look the same now with the generic templates, small type, music and flash and heavy manipulated images. Without the manipulation usually by graphic tech persons, not the photog, the images would look mundane and many times that is what the customer will get unless they want to spend more on "artwork".


The phonebook was your example. If you can not tell the difference between a well designed professional website and one done on the cheap by an amateur, you need to look at more websites. Try looking at these as if you were a customer and gain some insight.

akjack wrote:These countries you speak of already limit the number of students accepted into school even befor high school. This is why their test scores and achievment is so much higher than average, no child left behind American schools. (see video today at Yahoo)


You need to go deeper than a Yahoo video to understand the educational systems and role of the family both in the US and outside the US.

akjack wrote:A lot of what is said above about marketing, product, service should be left in the textbook 101 course where it belongs as theory as much of it is not applicable in the real world of competitive photography where there are no barriers to entry due to educational standards, lack of infrastructure (expensive studio and equipment) expense....this is why so many wannabes say they do location....the only cost is a digital camera !


You clearly have no understanding of business and marketing. A fundamental understanding and practice of some of the basics - Price points, market segmentation, value propositions and marketing communication - drive successful business.

You will be surprised to learn that the 4 marketing terms I mentioned are some of the key differences between a successful business and one that fails, for all sized businesses.

By now you should have learned that the photography market is segmented several ways, one of which is based on value/price. Which segment do you want to work in? What will you deliver that differentiates you from the others? What is your value proposition? how will you identify and communicate with your prospects?

Government control and subsidies are definitely not the answer. Governments continue to demonstrate their inefficiencies and frequent ineffectiveness in most of their undertakings.

rileypm
 
Posts: 678


Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:27 am


akjack wrote:
Even prostitution requires more experience!!!


You must go with the high priced ladies.

akjack
 
Posts: 66

Yes, the ladies that are tested, licensed, bonded, educated,

Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:37 pm


and legal are the best and you will find these in Europe along with similiar qualifications for photography I believe. Doug, quit blowing smoke, don't try to pull an Obama on us with flowery speaches and no substance. Do you work for a corporation or are you one of the "excellent" photographers who feel they are above the fray due to superior marketing skills ? That is quite a laugh that a better website will be superior in that the customer will be receiveing better imagery. Not proven whatsoever ! Many photographers use models and stylist for the web images (especially the money hungry seminar type) and can not pull off similiar images with real people as photography is not about cameras, lens, lights and all the other tech stuff like is discussed ad-nauseum on these boards. It's all about working with and guiding people, which few photographers are good at.

The marketing is actually the PROBLEM many times. Models, stylist, digitally manipulated images, presentation, competition printing etc. etc. etc. is what I see many times. All a big fake show, but no real talent in many cases.

Is not that what the get rich quick seminars teach ? Presentation...Ambiance... put on a big public realtions show, but have no real photography or people skills ???

The web is chock full of such websites, many of them by newbies !

It's you doug that need to be more informed with what goes on in the real world.

What happens many times is that the seminar snake oil salesmen fill the newbies heads with stuff like Doug talkes about and much more. The newbies go home and try to charge outrageous price for average images and turn customers off once again. So the customer has gone to a high price point photog and the year before went to a low price point photog and sees no real difference in the imagery. So, next time they will go to just anybody as it seems to make little difference !

Hense, the market becomes watered down and supersaturated with too many photographers. It's a simple as a Berenstine Bears book doug, not rocket science...the book is called TOO MANY PHOTOGRAPHERS !!!!

dougj
 
Posts: 2276


Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:50 pm


You made baseless, uninformed broad comments related to the downfall of the US economy due to inferior and dangerous goods from other countries. I provided several facts and suggested you go learn the whole picture. You have not provided anything of substance, other than an unrelated comment about Obama.

It is your choice if you want to continue to gain your education and knowledge from Yahoo videos. Should you continue to do so, you will have a very narrow and short view of the world, one that Yahoo wants you to see.


Websites by themselves do not provide better images, a professional website will clearly communicate to a prospective customer the type and level of products or services the company/person provides.

If the product or service portrayed on the website is not what is actually delivered, the truth will come out quickly and a customer will be lost. And referrals will also be lost, and these are a key source of new customers in some areas of commercial photography.

Your implication that all commercial photography websites have doctored photos that misrepresent the services provided is incorrect. I suggested you look at more photo websites to expand your perspective. You refuse to do this and replay the same nonsense.

Here is a pro thread related to the ethics of presenting photos on a website
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... bsite&qf=m

This pro photography forum has a lot of good discussions and information related to the primary topic of your post by emerging and established pros. I suggest you go spend some time and see what is happening in the real world, and how some of the pros cope with the challenges and opportunities.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1014

You may be surprised to learn they periodically discuss marketing and segmentation, and other related business topics. I haven't come across a thread in which they discuss a desire for government regulation and control. You can report back if you find one.

This is not rocket science, it's a simple matter of deciding what markets you will pursue, how you will communicate with the customer and manage competition. Photography is not unique in this regard.

akjack
 
Posts: 66

Dougi

Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:57 am


First of all if you want the truth about Global business and the "selling out " of America, get off the internet and read Lou Dobbs book "War on the Middle Class" you may change your tune, but most likely not ~

I read DP preview years ago and do not consider it a pro forum, but one of posers and wannabes.

You need to go beyond simplistic jingoistic business propganda, - you sound like a politician.

You should expand your limited horizones and delve into the philosophys and psychologies of photography, not to mention the sociology. The field itself is not what you believe it is. A few questions you may ask yourself are :

1. Why are so many photogs "artists" but yet seem incapable of doing any "art" except photography ?

2. Why do so many people with no artistic background or talent believe they can become photographers ?

3.Why do most aspiring photographers fail at becoming photographers ?
(and keep profits down for the real photogs)

4. Why do so many wannabe photographers use Canon or Nikon cameras when other brands like Minolta and Olympus developed most of modern camera technology ? (now theres one that really gets to the heart of marketing and branding...he-he)

5.Why do photographers like myself who excell at branding, marketing, service and everything else necessary to become a sucessful photographer not hang out at sites like DP preview, but in fact voice many of the same complaints I express here ? that you do not find at DP in general.

6.Why do folk who do not consider they have the faculities and capacities to become Doctors, Lawyers or Indian Chiefs, think they have the skills to take photographs ?

dougj
 
Posts: 2276


Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:26 am


How convenient to blame others for ones' failures. If you want to see why it's not working for you, look in the mirror and don't ask for government assistance in terms of barriers or handouts to protect you.

If you can't make it in photography, and refuse to change your business model, get out and go find another way to earn a living. Real simple, no emotion, it's only business. And you might be happier rather than whinging about the terrible state of bottom-end commercial photography. You still need to learn more about global business and competition, but that's a separate topic.

Photography is only a casual hobby for me. If you want to discuss chromatography and mass spectroscopy, and how to become the dominant MNC in the markets we choose, we can talk. It doesn't include government protection, but it does include a lot of basic business common sense and personal accountabilities.

rileypm
 
Posts: 678


Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:20 am


The easiest way to succeed in business (any business) is to provide what the customer wants. It does no good to have a fancy resturant with little business and blame it on the customer's bad taste for eating at McDonald's. I suppose the government should come around and raise the standards and qualifications for fast food so that McDonald's could no longer compete and then the fancy resturant could a do better business.

dougj
 
Posts: 2276


Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:50 am


rileypm wrote:The easiest way to succeed in business (any business) is to provide what the customer wants.


It doesn't get much more complicated than that.

akjack
 
Posts: 66

How did I know Dougi was not a full time photographer ????

Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:07 pm


by his ignorance !!! LOL Photography today is the "American idol" model.... Constant fools making ignoramases out of themselves because they are brainwashed by media to think the worlds highest calling is to be a rock star. Why would a person think they can so something different when there are trillions upon Google images out there and it has all been done already...... I see dougi has not answered one of my questions...Whatza matta doug.......pretending to be intelligent again ???
P.S why do some feel the need to highlight others remarks ? Poor short term memory ??? I never do that but respond from memory ???? Dougi, That mess you are involved in (your job) does not involve art, but just simple technology (I know you think it is Rocket Science)sooooo. we know where you are coming from and for sure you would be a photographic failure, thats why you spit your rap !

rileypm
 
Posts: 678


Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:26 pm


That's right. When we can no longer argue intelligently we can always attack a man's character, intelligence, memory, job, and abilities.

Give your customers what they want and you will never lack for business regardless of all the "would be" photographers competing with you. Very simple.

akjack
 
Posts: 66

rileypm

Post Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:21 am


you quite "simply" make a stupid simple statement as fact when it is not so....a business can provide what a customer wants 24/7 but if 10,000 others do the same, no one makes money !!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is very SIMPLE !!!

photomary
 
Posts: 333


Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:58 am


Quite true - so the smart thing to do is get out of the photography business and do something where you can make money.........right? And, you will be helping the photography profession, which is your aim..........right?

akjack
 
Posts: 66

No mary

Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:21 pm


What i want is people like yourself to get out of the profession so that you can stop embarressing the real photographers with poor service, crummy images and 3rd grade though processes !!! I hear the horror stories all the time !!! But then even your plummer has more credentials than the average photographer !!! I know, I know, you want to turn "Pro" like so many others on these boards....You bought a Nikon or Canon and they told you that all you have to do is buy their camera and you are on the road to being a pro just by the act of buying their camera ! I saw your post "I'm ready to turn pro" I have a
Canon and some 2 dollar studio lights and why not, i can make more from 1 wedding than I what made in a month working at Mcdonalds "

sheila
 
Posts: 1303

Re: No mary

Post Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:47 am


akjack wrote: I saw your post "I'm ready to turn pro" I have a
Canon and some 2 dollar studio lights and why not, i can make more from 1 wedding than I what made in a month working at Mcdonalds "


Now I am really confused! I was under the impression that the post "I'm ready to turn pro" was your post, not Mary's. In this thread, you are presumed to be a pro, but you then post a thread where you now want to turn "pro". So what's it to be?

With respect, you are spraying everyone who answered your thread with somewhat erratic and vitriolic responses. You are also implying that those who responded to this thread are lousy photographers but you do not have any images on this site (and probably others) for us to take your criticism seriously and prove to us that you are a "real" photographer and that we should all advise our clients that we are no longer pros and have taken up basket weaving instead.

There are many world renowned photographers who never had a lesson in photography. They never needed it.

So, as they say downunder, take a Bex and lie down :D

Sheila
Sheila Smart
Canon 5D Mark III; 17-40L; 24-70 f/2.8L; 70-300 f.4-5.6 L USM; 135 f/2L; 100 f/2.8 macro; 8-15 f/4 L fisheye

Blog: http://sheilasmartphotography.blogspot.com/

akjack
 
Posts: 66

Yes, I know that many great photogs never took a lesson

Post Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:12 am


But that was then and this is now. Many professional photogs on pro sites say what I'm saying but in different words. Many are afraid to say it as they are afraid to be considered snobish or etc.
It matters little if I'm a photog or not...the case is that I know what I'm talking about and its reality.
The US is overrun with photogs since digital and prices are coming down for weddings. I have done almost every type of photography, but my main business is wedding and portraits.
I'm serious in that I'm thinking of stop complaining and joining the crowd. The money is not in photography anymore but selling seminars and get rich books. Also cameras, flash bouncers and other junk.
The whole business has become a "SELL" business to newbie photogs at the expense of the profession.
Your average wedding fair has some many new photographers they outnumber any other vendor...4 or 5 to one.
Now they are all after the Senior Grad business....
I know it's mostly newbies and weekend warriors on this site, so I don't expect to be well liked !!!

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