Board index Photography Artistic Questions Decisive Moment

Artistic Questions

Decisive Moment

Discuss style and artistic aspects of photography
madlights
 
Posts: 914

Decisive Moment

Post Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:10 pm


Bresson and some others talked of the " decisive moment " in photographs. Just for fun...and for a change of pace from the turmoil in some other areas of the forum (I don't know if I even have an opinion on this). Is there any longer, since the advent of digital, and everyone shooting Raw and being able to change color to BW, being able to almost "paint" a photograph,being able to change nearly everything except sharper focus (and that's being worked on), being able to add and subtract from, (yeah I'm aware of darkroom techniques and that they've been used for years) but does the digital revolution sort of change things from the "decisive moment", to the "sort of decisive moment" ? or even the "less than decisive moment"?

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:27 pm


Hi Barri,

It would be a good idea I think to talk about what Bresson meant...

Bressons' simple idea for The Decisive Moment was when all the elements in a scene came together for one brief "decisive moment" resulting in a coherent photograph plucked right out of the chaos of life. It was never about sharpness or what film he was using it was about being open to life as it was in front of the camera. Despite what people might think Bresson was not anti colour, he simply did not think colour film was good enough during his time, but he recognized its importance. He was not interested in staged or posed photographs, he saw the camera as an instant scetch book. Most of Bressons' work were taken on assignment, from Russia to China he captured life, it was his mastery of geometry, timing and a sensitivity to life that set him apart. He never cropped his images, he and Robert Capa and others created Magnum so they would have full control of their images. He never worked for Time again after they cropped one of his images, he had two stamps he'd put on the back of his photographs "Truth" and "Beauty" "Truth" was to remind publishers that they were not use the photograph out of context of his original intention. "Beauty" was not to change the look of the photograph he had given them.

Life goes on and as long as there are phographers that are open to it then there will always be Decisive Moments to capture. You can't manufacture a decisive moment, it goes against the whole principle of it. Lets not forget though that this is a genre of its own and there are many others. Bresson was Avedon's hero but they had very different approaches. Avedon created the moments with compleate control, once you entered his world he would get what he wanted from you, wearing subjects down if need be. When Bresson made portraits they were unplanned and unposed, he used the same philosophy for portraits as he did for the street.

Digital is a technological advance and photography has seen many. Bresson knew and has said that it was the Leica that allowed him to what what he wanted to do, 35mms camera were very much looked down upon because they made photography accessible to the masses. Bresson knew an 8x10 was never going to be the right tool for him nor was colour film.

It's important to remember that it's an ethic rather than a matter of technology.
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

madlights
 
Posts: 914

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:59 pm


sean_mcr said:
It's important to remember that it's an ethic rather than a matter of technology.

Yep. Think this hits the nail on the proverbial head to me. I do think digital makes it "easier" to bend ethics...but the ethics are up to the photographer. There still is something a bit different about digital in the connection to the subject though, in my eyes...as far as the amount that a photo can be literally manipulated with ease...and today of course that can be done with film scans as well. I realize what Bresson meant in the decisive moment...but was just making a play on words and ideas...because of the ease and the ability to manipulate digital and to keep changing more or less with ease, the mood or intent of a photo. Say in his famous photo of the kid diving into the river in India, today with digital a less ethical photographer could replace the kid with an Elephant (Ok that's a bit of exaggeration). The laws of the chemistry of film were more confining in that regard...although of course could be bent. When a person shoots black and white in film, it's black and white unless hand colored. There is a certain decisiveness in that, that can't be changed...There's a certain feel in snapping a shutter and knowing you 'sort of' get what you get (well yeah it can be changed - but not so much). In a way it's what I've missed about film. It's also why I'm sort of an idiot when it comes to shooting black and white, I know that Raw's tonality is so much greater than jpg. and my main cameras shoot Raw...but I like the "feel" of knowing I can't change things so much when I click the shutter. (well if you get a jpg exposure "right on" it's not so bad anyway) Well I've got 5 rolls of negative BW getting developed right now, the first in near 10 years...I've missed that feel that much. I have no idea why, or exactly what I mean...just know it "feels" different. The connection to the subject may be part of the "decisive moment"? in a different sense. Maybe partly that's why Bresson used a rangefinder? aside from it being unobtrusive. It connects to the subject a bit differently than an SLR because of the difference in the viewfinder? I've never used one, but my old little Zeiss Ikon had framing bars, so you could see the world around your subject too...it was a different feel than an SLR. in my mind the decisive moment, is all the ingredients come together like you said...but what you do with those ingredients afterwards is sort of part of it too, in a different regard, if done ethically.

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:51 pm


I'll say one thing right now Barrie and that's the tool or the format is not the message. Bresson did not print his own images, he'd give instruction on how much contrast a shot should have etc, but for him the decisive moment ended when he hit the shutter. I can think of many great photographers who's work was based on that whole idea of a decisive moment who have shot and are still shooting with slrs. One of the photographers I love most is Don McCullin who shot with a Nikon F along with many, many others. Have to get away from the romanticism of the leica, a very important camera but by no means the only one.


"Photograpy has not changed since its origin except in its technical aspects which for me is not a major concern"

Henri Cartier Bresson

That is the first line from his book 'The Mind's Eye' The chapter on colour would be of real interest to you, would even surprise you. I have to say Barri that I don't see committing to colour or black and white has anything to do with 'The Decisive Moment' a good discipline for sure which has real merit. I can't think of a single photographer that is known for being a master of them both. It's certainly colour that dominates the contemporary art market today and has done for some time, but this is a different topic entirely from The Decisive moment.

After a number of years of studying and practicing photography, understanding its limits, its strengths and weaknesses a person should be able to look a photograph and know where its merit lies, you either buy it or you don't. That has little to do with what format or what an image file is tagged with

You'll enjoy this.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/3615
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

madlights
 
Posts: 914

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:28 pm


Sometimes I get to rambling... I do think rangefinders have a different connection to the subject than SLR's for certain people...and by no means saying that they are superior, just different. Same as holding a point and shoot out at arms length is different...yet some great photos have been made with them too. Certain people just like the feel of certain things. I don't really agree that the commitment to color or BW isn't part of the act of snapping the shutter. BW and color are two different things, the color contrasts, the impact of the type of film etc. If you took the "decisive moment" in a narrow definition...you'd be right. But the decisive moment includes, and the photographer must be aware of all the factors involved, since the photographer is involved in it....even the awareness of the subject of a camera has a bearing.... Lighting, film, subject..etc etc. It all comes together in a broader definition. The decisive moment is part of the photographer, since we all might see and react to it differently. So the extraneous things such as what we were shooting with, what film we were using what was in our minds would all play a part in that 'decisive moment'.? And how we interpreted it? (geez I'm glad for firefoxes spellchecker) :)
As far as what is sold and how...I totally agree.
I guess what I was getting at (back from my ramble) is that it used to be that a point was reached where the "when in doubt leave out" point was hit. People have always gone back and reprinted from a negative, but sooner of later seemed to hit that point. With digital, and it being so easily modified (and even the intent or mood changed) that it seems many people keep going back, including myself, and see how this looks or that looks..partly to see..partly because we learn new stuff..and so in a very broad sense..what was there at 'the decisive moment' can be much more easily corrected and for some people even "modified". I think the title for my thread could have been 'Post Decisive Moment' ...That's sort of what I meant and that does have a bearing on extending out that moment at least in some cases, but of course you've gotta have a moment to begin with. :wink:
Well off to read the link you gave and thanks.
Last edited by madlights on Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:04 pm


That's just a matter of conviction Barri, you can't blame digital for that. It's you/we that make that choice. I've said it before that if you shoot a certain subject you know right away that it's never going to be about colour there is no going back once you have picked that subject, it's the subject that is paramount always has been and it doesn't matter if you're shooting raw or jpeg, that should be known and understood before a shot is taken. You can load a film a 1000 times you can choose colour or black and white film, but that's no guarantee at all that a decisive moment will ever be captured.

Bressons' idea is actually quite simple, it's just hard to master. In colour or black and white, digital or film
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

madlights
 
Posts: 914

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:40 pm


Oh yeah I agree...and don't really blame digital...although you've gotta agree it's made it easier? And many have led the masses, for various reasons mostly selling something concerning post processing, that it's the path to nirvana...kinda like pied pipers...follow me and give me your money. Think we just are on a different wavelength here. The Shot itself is what counts... it just seems many are corrupting that idea as have I (I try to much less now). That's what I was talking about. If people would spend the time feeling, or as Bresson said 'receiving' photos...including myself...instead of becoming so engrossed in post processing....if we'd spend our time really trying to see the decisive moments, rather than make them afterward...and to a degree digital has contributed, in that regard, to that.Not really digital itself. But it is up to us. That's where I was coming from. I still like shooting in BW if my final photos are to be in BW..I don't know why..LOL. Maybe I'm an anarchist :D
That's a great video interview...hadn't seen it. Loved the part where Charlie asks him about why he shoots...and he says "It's quicker than drawing".
Being an anarchist is a good way to find out about the world.

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:29 am


It's a two horse race this :lol: I'm going to bow out after this :wink:

Decisive moments are fleeting moments that are over as quickly as they begun. Digital can't change that, it's had no impact on that at all, those moments can't be created on a pc; Technology changes but the flow and chaos of life goes on... he did once say that photography is nothing it's life that interests me. Just think how many moments we've missed putting our energy in to this :roll:

I'll ask a rhetorical question. If it's made it easier, where's the evidence? That's not me trying to be smart, I've just not seen a rise in the percentage of good photography because of digital. Taking a picture has always been very easy, taking a good one is another matter all together and has zero to do with the format, wet plate, dry plate film or digital.

Take a look at some of his work, forget about what camera he used just think about what you're seeing. If you don't manage to forget about the technical details while you look at his images,then my friend you've got a problem that's going to
hinder you. Because a good photograph will make you forget all of that, unless you're more hung up on things that will only serve as a distraction to you in the end.

http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.a ... m&CT=Album

Keep shooting

P.S

You should seriously read this to

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.co ... ullet.html
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

madlights
 
Posts: 914

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:23 am


LOL...Sean I'm not disagreeing. I'm saying the same thing! (I think) It's just that many people are trying to make it the opposite...thinking that they can alter or greatly improve upon the moment afterwards.... Which of course they can't. I've used this in a play on words...to emphasize my question and get a discussion going. That it's the feeling that is portrayed in a photograph that is the important thing. Bresson never developed his own shots...and no matter how much any of us work on our own shots afterwards...we aren't going to convey the feelings that Bresson did with his sensitivity and skill. That's what I was saying. In my original post...I was asking a question to think about....not making a statement (tried to be careful about that). That since the advent of, or the digital revolution, that many people think that a photo of a moment can be changed for more impact digitally. I personally no longer subscribe to that belief...and have tried my best to adjust my shooting as I learn.
Many things come to bear on the "decisive moment" but I don't think overdoing post processing is one of them...and that if it's overdone, or poorly done it can turn that "decisive moment" into mush. Bresson never even cropped. That's my view.


Now there is something sort of new because of digital, and that is digital 'art' which involves a whole lot of processing..and can be aesthetically nice and have a message or feel. But I don't consider it as photography, although photography can be part of it. That's a whole other ball game...and has nothing much to do with this.
Last edited by madlights on Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

sean_mcr
 
Posts: 493

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:40 am


True, he did not. But he had the best doing it for him, he knew exactly how he wanted his prints to look. Whether you do it or you have somebody else do it, it's necessary. Gene Smith slaved for hours in the darkroom, towers above most mere mortals. Absolute master of the decisive moment.

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/S ... mith2.html


I'll say finally that I'm lucky to own some beautiful books of photographs, very much care has gone in to making them. From the printing to the binding, utmost care and devotion has been put in to showing the work at its best, good work deserves no less. A good work ethic can enter in to every aspect of your photography, from camera to print. A person can embrace photography's relationship to the world or they can ignore it and pervert it, that's as true now as it was in 1850. Fear not, Barri. sounds like you've come to realise that you want to embrace the former, you wouldn't be the first.

"Each venture
Is a new beginning, And what there is to conquer
By strength and submission, has already been discovered
Once or twice, or several times, by men whom one cannot hope
To emulate—but there is no competition—
There is only the fight to recover what has been lost
And found and lost again and again..."

T.S. Eliot
What uses having a great depth of field, if there is not an adequate depth of feeling? -

W. Eugene Smith

mnoble
 
Posts: 135

Re: Decisive Moment

Post Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:18 pm


I confess that I only browsed through all the commentary on this subject. And some very good points were made. Cartier-Bresson is one of my favorite photographers. My take on the decisive moment is that there is always some tension in the photograph. Something is going to happen; something is happening. A moment in time and a moment in the sequence of life is taken and frozen. But you know that the participants in the photograph will continue their event.

HCB primarily photographed people. And this is another aspect of the decisive moment. It is hard for a landscape by itself to generate a decisive moment, but if a person rides a bike through a scene, that will create it.

Anyway... enough analysis. I feel the need to go an look at his work again for the sheer enjoyment of seeing a masters work.

Cheers.


Board index Photography Artistic Questions Decisive Moment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron